John Swinney admits there are only two genders despite backing Sturgeon on self-ID

John Swinney has admitted he thinks there are only two genders despite being Nicola Sturgeon’s deputy when she pushed through her self-ID laws.

The First Minister initially tried to avoid answering a question on a radio phone-in about how many genders there are, saying it was a matter of political debate.

But, pressed three times by the BBC’s Nicky Campbell for a response, he eventually stated that “from my point of view there is the male and female gender”.

Mr Swinney also said it was up to an incoming Labour government to decide whether Ms Sturgeon’s controversial Gender Recognition Reform (GRR) Bill would be resurrected.

The Bill would allow Scots to change their legal gender by simply signing a statutory declaration, dropping the requirement for a formal medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

Rishi Sunak’s Government blocked the legislation over concerns it undermined UK-wide women’s rights, including the sanctity of safe spaces such as changing rooms.

JK Rowling has called Ms Sturgeon a “destroyer of women’s rights” and, in May, criticised Mr Swinney for refusing to say if he believes trans women were women.

Asked by Mr Campbell on BBC Radio Five Live how many genders he thought there were, Mr Swinney said: “ I think there’ll be quite a debate about that. Nikki.”

Pressed a second time for his views, the First Minister said: “Well, I think in this debate a woman is an adult born as a female and there are also transgender women.”

Asked by Mr Campbell a third time how many genders there are, Mr Swinney said: “I think people will debate and discuss that. From my point of view, there’s the male and female gender.”

Ms Rowling tweeted as recording of the exchange, saying: “In which the First Minister of Scotland does a very good impression of a teenager trying to bulls--- his way through questions on a book he’s never read.”

Murdo Fraser, a Scottish Tory MSP, tweeted that the First Minister’s response to the question had been “excruciating.”

The First Minister’s comments came after a caller to the phone-in expressed concern that the GRR Bill would be brought back and would undermine the sanctity of women-only safe spaces.

Mr Swinney, who was Ms Sturgeon’s deputy first minister, said he accepted a ruling by the Court of Session in Edinburgh last September that the UK Government acted lawfully by blocking the legislation.

In a 65-page judgment, Lady Haldane rejected claims made by the SNP that Alister Jack, the Scottish Secretary, had acted irrationally and could not justify his concern the legislation would undermine UK-wide protections for women.

The First Minister said: “The question then arises is whether the incoming Labour government would change the stance of the UK Government.

“I don’t know what the answer to that question is. I think that’s a matter for the incoming Labour government, which I expect to be in place on Friday. It would be their decision as to what to do in that respect.”

He insisted that his SNP administration would do nothing to jeopardise women’s safe spaces.

The UK Labour manifesto pledged to simplify the process for changing legal gender “whilst retaining the need for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria from a specialist doctor”.

But the Scottish Labour document removed this wording and merely promised to “modernise, simplify and reform” the procedure.

For Women Scotland, the feminist campaign group, said the absence of any medical diagnosis meant that the plan was “completely and utterly self-ID.”

Marion Calder, the organisation’s director, said Mr Swinney had deliberately confused “sex” and “gender” during the phone-in.

She said there were only two sexes but there are “as many genders as there are people on the planet”.