Paula Vennells told me postmasters had their ‘fingers in the tills’, Jo Swinson claims

Paula Vennells told Jo Swinson “something to the effect” that some sub-postmasters had “their fingers in the till”, the former Liberal Democrat leader has claimed.

Ms Swinson told the Post Office Horizon Inquiry that the former chief executive was trying to convey the message that “although these might seem to be lovely people, clearly some of them are actually just at it”.

The former postal affairs minister from 2012 to 2015 said she was reassured that the former chief executive “spoke not only with the standing of a CEO of a major institution but also with the moral authority of an ordained vicar”.

Ms Swinson told the inquiry she recalled “probing Paula Vennells on matters relating to Horizon on several occasions in person”.

She also said Ms Vennells “knew there was a problem with an unsafe witness, and she never told me”.

The former Liberal Democrat MP was referring to leading Fujitsu engineer Gareth Jenkins, who is the subject of a Metropolitan Police investigation on suspicion of perjury and perverting the course of justice.

Ms Swinson told the inquiry she “did not ask many questions” about the nature of the government’s role as a shareholder of the Post Office and wished she had “intervened more”.

More than 900 sub-postmasters were wrongfully prosecuted between 1999 and 2015 due to the faulty Fujitsu software incorrectly recording shortfalls on their branch accounts.

Ms Vennells, a 65-year-old ordained priest, was Post Office boss from 2012 to 2019.

Ms Swinson was questioned about her response to the then-ongoing scandal.

In a witness statement submitted to the inquiry, she said: “On another occasion, I recall Ms Vennells explaining to me, in a tone of taking me into her confidence, with something of a pained expression, that while it was a sad situation, the reality was that some sub-postmasters ‘had their fingers in the till’ or something to that effect.”

The former Liberal Democrat MP, who first entered Parliament as the “Baby of the House” in 2005 aged 25, told the inquiry the conversation likely took place in July 2013 - when several Horizon victims had contacted their local MPs.

When asked what Ms Vennells said specifically, Ms Swinson said: “I’m not going to be able to give you the exact words that Paula used, it was more than a decade ago - and so what remains in my memory is the impression that it made, not exactly the words that she said.

“But what she was trying to clearly reassure me, explain to me…and as I say these are not her words, these are my impression of what she was saying.... that ‘although these might seem to be lovely people, clearly some of them are actually just at it’, is what she was trying to convey.”

She went on to add: “So this was Paula Vennells saying to me that, ‘Yeah, basically just some of these postmasters are guilty’.”

The former minister was also asked about presentation slides which outlined the potential benefits of sacking Ms Vennells from her role in 2014.

Among other complaints, the slides suggested that the chief executive did not have a good working relationship with Ms Swinson and that there were concerns about her performance.

However, in her witness statement, the former minister said she was “shocked” by the document and said that she had not been briefed about the Board’s worries concerning the chief executive’s competency in her role.

When asked about her working relationship with Ms Vennells, Ms Swinson said: “I engaged with Paula regularly and I felt we did have quite a good working relationship.”

She added: “It was a big surprise to me when I saw it [the slideshow] come forward in the [evidence] pack and indeed I think when it was put to [former Post Office chairman] Alice Perkins [at the inquiry].”

Later on in her witness statement, Ms Swinson wrote of how the Post Office chief executive spoke with “not only the standing of a CEO of a major institution but also with the moral authority of an ordained vicar”.

When asked about a time in which the Post Office was issued with urgent legal advice which warned that an expert witness it used to prosecute sub-postmasters was “unsafe”, Ms Swinson brought up Ms Vennells again.

Speaking with an exasperated tone, she said: “I mean, well, we know that Paula Vennells was aware that there were problems with an unsafe witness - and she never told me.”

As her time in the stand neared to a close, Ms Swinson was grilled by other lawyers - including Samantha Leek, KC, who represents Ms Vennells.

Ms Leed asked: “Are you aware that there is no evidence to suggest that Ms Vennells was ever shown either of the Simon Clark advices by Susan Crichton or any other Post Office lawyer before she left the Post Office?”

Ms Swinson responded by saying that while preparing for the inquiry, she had seen an email from October 2013 sent by Ms Vennells to then-Post Office chairman Alice Perkins.

She continued: “I don’t have the specific wording, so I may not remember precisely but, it basically says on the lines of, ‘My concern about Horizon or Sparrow is our obligations of disclosure regarding an unsafe witness,’ which to me says that she knows there is an unsafe witness and is therefore referring to the Clarke advice.”

Ms Swinson went on to confirm that the email was what her understanding that Ms Vennells knew of an unsafe witness was based on.

‘We were misled’

Later in the afternoon, the inquiry heard from former Royal Mail chief executive Dame Moya Greene, who claimed she had raised the issue of Horizon complaints and allegations with Ms Vennells either directly or indirectly on “four separate occasions”.

Dame Moya, 70, claimed she had been “concerned there was something wrong with the system” but Ms Vennells and others “reassured” her that Horizon had been reviewed on multiple occasions.

The Canadian businesswoman was then asked about texts previously shown to the inquiry in which a once-friendly exchange deteriorated.

In January 2024, Dame Moya wrote to the former Post Office chief executive, “I don’t know what to say. I think you knew..”

When asked what she meant by this, Dame Moya told the inquiry: “I think she knew, on the basis of the evidence that has emerged in this inquiry, that there were faults in the system.”

She added: “I think Post Office executives, including Mrs Vennells, continue to slavishly - in my opinion - adhere to the position that was not tenable on the basis of the evidence presented here - that there were no faults.”

When asked if she viewed conversations with Ms Vennells in a different light, Dame Moya said: “I do see it in a different light, because I do think that we were misled.

“I think that it was grossly understated, the gravity of the situation and it has had calamitous results for people.”